So I’ve got the starter apart after slow hot starting- seems to me to be some really sticky stuff stuck between the bearing and commutator.. I could only get this off with petrol. I also freshened up the mounts to rule out earthing issues. It started right up, but yet to try when hot- unfortunately found other issues to deal with
When you have a starter apart it’s worth cleaning out the grooves where the brushes contact the armature. A scribe or sharpened hacksaw blade is good. If the contact area is nice and flat and concentric, grooves between copper windings are clear, and brushes are good you’ll probably have a good starter. Hope it starts better now?
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I messed about with my vf1000fe starter for far too long.
I fitted a second hand vf750f starter years ago and never looked back.
But if you are happy stripping it down and fitting parts and hoping it will work this time then ignore what I said.
Sorry , just a small starter issue chip on my shoulder that needed to be brushed off.
good luck with it.
yes did that and blew it all out- I reckon the glue-like substance could only be overheated grease from the bearing, mixed with brush dust.. it was really stiff like sticky plastercine
[quote=“intruder, post:3, topic:5417”]
happy stripping it down and fitting parts and hoping it will work
[/quote] yes happy doing that- afterall it just needs maintenance.. I was ready to put a cheepo $100 new 1 on though, if it was stuffed.
I’ve done a test now and all is good when hot-- has anyone else noticed this sticky glue in their starters? looks easy to miss - that clean ring on the casing had 2mm of this stuff which could easily’ve touched the commutator..
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Well done! It’s always good to know that your VF will start from hot, a bit embarrassing otherwise!
Re new starters, the Arrowhead brand VFR starters fit, and seem to crank better?
I think I read somewhere that they’re 2 brush starters? so besides being new they’re nothing special ? and I see amazon 750 starters for under $100nz delivered.. anyway hopefully i don’t need a new 1. I’m diverting my attention to all the other things that need sorting 4 now.. meanwhile I’m celebrating as I got my WOF (MOT) today- happydays! cheers
Is that fe starter? If so I’d put a 750f starter on it as the 750 has four points instead off too gives the fe a bit off help
Yes fe. I’ll b looking for 4 bush if I have to change.. all good at the mo though. Cheers
Just be aware, the VF750 starter has a slightly shorter shaft than the VF1000, not sure why though.
Smithy.
funny- I thought the 1 on it was short, kinda running onthe tip as opposed 2 the middle. Also I thought the gear it was driving was a bit wobbly? is that another ‘feature’ of these VF’s ?
It might already have had a 750 starter fitted to it?
The Arrowhead VFR starter I fitted to one of mine was a 4 brush starter.
Those VFR starters do have a slightly shorter shaft, and only engage on about half of the shaft. I haven’t had any trouble from the shorter shaft.
EBay used to list a four brush kit for our starters but I haven’t seen that listing for a few years now.
Best and really the only way to clean up the commutator (Copper and grooves) of a starter motor is to use a new hacksaw blade that has had the teeth ground down on the sides to make them flat so that the teeth are still sharp but do not stick out past the sides of the saw blade. Scrape the blade slowly in the insulation grooves to make the groove flat’ they need to be about half a millimetre deep from the surface of the copper face. If the copper surface is reasonably smooth, then you can polish it with fine emery paper or tape making sure that you keep the commutator round. If it is badly worn, then put it in a lathe and skim the surface before recutting the grooves with the hacksaw. clean it thoroughly to make sure all the surfaces are clean and free of any contaminants and all grooves are clear and equal. Test all the copper segments to ensure that there is no continuity between any of the segments and earth. Test that there is continuity between any two side by side segments. If brushes are within specs refit or if not fit new brushes. Four brush motors will always run faster than two brush motors and will have more torque. Happy cleaning.
John
I was thinking it could do with skimming off as a few of the segments are pitted - I dint bother getting the armature out last time, but since it’s still not going well, I’ll unsolder it and do a proper job on it. usually when cleaning up motors the armature just comes out easily. Do you think those unclean grooves would cause the slow when hot symptoms?
I noticed the brush plate isn’t earthed except for 3 tangs that get pressed in when tightening the motor together- and where those tangs touch has had a huge amount of arcing. I cleaned them up a bit (which didn’t help) but I’m thinking of drilling a hole and putting an earth wire on it.
my starter issue is compounded by my charging issue though- it doesn’t charge when the headlights on- so I’m looking into that too - grrr
I don’t think so- the + terminal is in the right place? if all else fails I’ll b putting a new 1 on.
I have edited my previous reply because I inserted a “no” where it should not have been. There should be resistive continuity between the copper segments. If the grooves and copper segments are dirty and/or worn down, there could be direct shorting between them instead of resistance which would cause problems. the insulation grooves are recessed to make sure there can be no direct contact between the copper segments so they should be totally clean of any debris. There should not be any sort of arcing in the areas that you mentioned at all, so something is not right. The only area that you should see any sort of arcing is around the commutator were the brushes and copper segments come into contact and that should be very minimal and that is what causes the brushes and copper sections of the commutator to wear down. The arcing is probably caused because the plate is not held tightly enough. The photo is very dark, so it is a bit hard to see properly. It is ok to clean up your commutator with a fine wet and dry paper (have been doing it for years) but you have to clean it up really well to make sure no grit gets left on the commutator. Skimming on a lathe works really well too but then you need to clean out the grooves with the modified hacksaw blade. See how you go and if all else fails put a new or second hand 4 brush starter motor in because we know that they work well.
all good, I’ll check and also do something different about earthing that brush plate, that looks like it’s been buzzing forever. It’s a crumby passive earth design and those little tangs felt too easy to bend-- zoom in for a better look- also I noticed the earth brush has worn significantly more than the + brush, plus the whole earth brush cages is heat dis-coloured and the rivits too.. it all measures out OK when cold, ie no resistance. Maybe I should go look for my old megger to be sure?
Again thanks for the input- I was a sparky years ago.. industrial shift at an old cement works. mostly huge motors and controls, but forgotten a lot of it now -ha
hooray success! and thank goodness its easy to get to.. I first tried fixing the earth problem which made a huge improvement in both cold and hot conditions - but was still a little sluggish when hot- so moved on the the commutator and followed your advise- I had put a bit of time in there, but not nearly enough!
so after digging out much more dirt than previously, it now starts straight away when hot very easily!
so thank you very much for the detailed advice Jovimill which probably should be pinned somewhere since I see these bikes are rife with this issue-
unfortunately I have a new starter heading my way as I was thinking the worst and being concerned about my riding pleasure-- but I suppose it’ll be good to have a spare?
Anyway Happy days! cheers speedygp also for the help
I put a stiff wire around the casing flattening out those 3 tabs and locking the brush plate between the casings
also I was able to get the armaure out the back -just- without unsoldering but pushing the field coil joining wire back as far as possible- if anyone goes down this track..
I might take it apart 1 more time though as I noticed about 1mm movement in the armature which could be reduced with a thicker washer in the rear casing- giving the splines a bit more bite on the cog it drives..
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looks like you did a good job on that starter. It was probably previously pulled apart and didn’t get put back together right causing the arcing on the negative side which would have caused the negative brush to wear more. Always good to have a spare that works. Must be getting cold in the land of the long white cloud at the moment. Not as cold here in Aust but luv NZ been there a few times.
Good luck with the rest of rebuild and keep asking the questions,
John